The illiberal Liberals and the unrighteous Right

[Professor]

Liberalism is dead as a major force in US politics. What passes as liberalism is neo-fascism. Many (not all) were incrementally marched in that direction over the last 15 to 20 years via the effective use of propaganda, party loyalty, and scumbag politicos who played the role and knew exactly what they were doing. Calling a dog a cat does not make a dog a cat. Calling them liberals plays into the masquerade that most of the rank and file 'liberals' don't recognize themselves. It's time to call it what it is and not allow fascism to hide behind 1984 style language. The same with calling the battle against 'disinformation' and 'misinformation' what it really is. It is the censorship that is part of fascist ideology.

[John Carter]

Don't forget the role played by social media algorithms. The leftward drift became an avalanche after 2012 or so, and this correlates with the widespread adoption of the social media. Personal experience is that the heaviest users of Facebook and Twitter tended to be the ones whose politics shifted most dramatically to the radical wokeish, particularly if they didn't start with strong ideological priors - in other words, it was the squishy centrists who defaulted to consensus liberalism and weren't terribly political who were the most vulnerable to algorithmic manipulation of their worldviews.

[mzlizzi]

“Squishy Centrists”

Bingo!

[Jimychanga]

The right has actually drifted left, IMO, but the avg citizen has taken a half step right in sheer disgust of the stalinesque tactics of the left and the Davos men.

[Donna Marie Valentine]

I agree in that our "standards" in our country and our personal lives have been abandoned. I raised my children (or tried to) in an Irish, Catholic foundation and adhering to the foundations our great country was built upon (respecting our flag, teaching of our history of fighting for our freedoms etc.). My 3 children, including my son who is on the autistic spectrum with adhd, all graduated from Mendham High School in Morris County, NJ. Their nickname is "The Minutemen!" I tried to teach the importance of where the nickname came from, the young 17 year old soldiers that joined Washington right here in our backyard to fight for our freedoms. We took them when they were young to listen to the audio tapes in Jockey Hollow Park which described what took place and their bravery etc. I wanted my girls to go to Villa Walsh (a top academic Catholic Girls school), but for various reasons they wanted to go to the top, public high school. The academics and sports etc. are all very good; however, based upon the latest town magazine the insanity has infiltrated here. One has completed a Masters at Duke in Biomedical Science to go onto medical school, the other is in college at VT. Today I would not let them attend the public school. The town magazine features a family in town in each subscription which I find to be so nice, until I came across the last article. As a mother, a nurse with a psych degree and certified school nurse (Masters), when I first interact with a teenager, a senior in high school, I do not think to discuss their "sexual" orientation etc. I would not be sharing that about my children in an article, but rather their future plans for college, what they want to study and why, their activities, hobbies, interests, friends etc. This article focused on a single mother, who shared that her divorce was horrible (I would not share that in a magazine) and how her twins are "bisexual" and "non-binary" and it went on to have the twin teens state how they felt they did not "need" a father etc. And the mother of course added that she had joined the newly added "diversity" council etc. There is no one preventing "anyone" from buying a home here in this historic, but very expensive town! To me the article displayed an attack on everything that has made our country great and represented what the left is doing to destroy our nuclear families, our children, our society, our country. I worked hard to instill morals, values, love of our country etc. in my children. Then they get exposed to this and more as they go on to college. We made a conscious effort to steer away from blatant, liberal universities, but even though the university both my girls attended/attend is more conservative, the president appears to be liberal! They get inundated with the leftist narrative to a point of desensitizing our youth and normalizing behaviors and thoughts that are diametrically opposed to our family's beliefs and values. It is extremely upsetting to watch this happen with your own children and our young adults in general. The left has been, for many years, indoctrinating our children, but at present it is a full blown attack and therefore, speaking for myself, it makes me feel like Mel Gibson in Bravehart to say enough, to stand up and protect our children and the future of our country!

[mzlizzi]

Honestly, I would not even want my child to go to what passes as “medical school” right now. Most likely, it’s an indoctrination station.

I’d advise her to hold out until things get normal again (this, too, shall pass) and to go for a plumbing apprenticeship instead. (Don’t think I’m joking!)

[Donna Marie Valentine]

Ironically my Grandfather (who passed before I got to know him) had a Heating and Oil Contract business. He was a plumber! My Uncle and his two sons took over the business. My daughter worked extremely hard all through school, 9 AP classes, 3 AP Sciences, AP Bio, AP Chem, AP Physics, AP Stat, AP Psych her senior year of high school while completing her GS Gold Award, playing 5 sports, Relay for Life, teaching CCD etc. She then went on to obtain her BS in Clinical Neuroscience, graduated with honors and a separate honors diploma, research, joined the Chem Fraternity with all the Engineering guys from VT etc. She was accepted into both Johns Hopkins and Duke's 1 year accelerated Masters in Biomedical Science Pre-Med program. She chose Duke, because they offered getting your EMT as well. She just received her EMT license in NJ (even though she was already licensed in NC). She took the mcats, waiting for the results, but plans to get a full time job in a science field, study for the mcats again and then apply. My brother is a pulmonologist, my mother a nurse, I am a nurse, so I am fully aware of how the left has infiltrated medicine as well (uggghh). How does "social justice" have any part in medicine? My daughter at Duke had to endure an "essentials" class (everything online due to covid which was ridiculous and unfair). In this "class" the liberal "white" teacher asked the group how they felt about the "protests" and the push for them to pull down the statue of the founder of Duke etc. At age 22 she was insightful enough to state that she did not feel comfortable commenting on this and immediately a "black" female student chimed in "I am sure YOU do not feel comfortable etc.!! How is this in anyway appropriate or related to her field of study? The teacher reminded her verbally in front of the group that participation is part of her grade for the class!!! It is wrong on so many levels! She was 1 of 4 white girls in the program of about 36 students. I raised my children to be kind and accepting of all people. My daughter is tough as nails in her sports, but has the kindest heart you will ever meet. She created an after school special needs club for her brother on the spectrum and other students at the twin high schools so they could have a group to do fun things! She is friends with people from all walks of life. So, as a mother, knowing she was alone, in her apartment in another state, forced there by the school not doing in person teaching and to find out that when they did meet outside the other "black" girls did not ask her to sit with her at the picnic table. These are "graduate" students! She went over and sat by herself at a tree. Fortunately, one guy who went to her college was there and came over and sat with her. She would never treat anyone that way! When we had our big pool parties I taught my children that if you invite let's say your Girl Scout group, you do not invite 6 out of the 8 girls, you invite all of them. She was on 3 basketball teams and 3 softball teams at the same time, so we invited the entire team! I just got a big cake, no problem! In this program when they reviewed "racism" toward black women (which was real back in the 60's), she said to me "when I am a doctor Mom, it doesn't matter what my patient's skin color is I am their doctor and I am there to make them well!" That's my girl!

[Rust]

Immense admiration for your mothering skills.

[Donna Marie Valentine]

That is such a kind thing to say. One time when my Shanie was little the school district wanted to send him out of district due to a behavior he had (which they did not handle well). The place was for low functioning individuals and my heart was broken). I was so upset I didn't realize that I had stood up and had my arm extended pointing at the director of Special Services and let him have a piece of my mind (no cursing). By the time I got into the car I started to sob, like the kind where you cannot breathe. I sat there, trying to catch my breath and then it happened. Slowly the feeling began in my stomach and then it came up through my throat - it was anger! How dare "they" say what my beautiful boy will never do! I went home and we moved to another town and kept fighting. We got him mainstreamed and he walked through graduation at a top, public high school with his sister (the only one of his kind in his grade) earning a legitimate high school diploma. For most of my life growing up I dealt with various forms of abuse and was not able to stand up for myself, but if you look sideways at my children (or any children in my care) - well just picture Mel Gibson on his horse in Bravehart where he rides into the betrayer's bedroom and the horse steps up on the bed and William Wallace drops the metal ball - that is me! Ha ha ha! (Yes I am 7/8 Irish and 1/8 Scottish - so don't mess with me, ha!).

[Rust]

I am Cajun with Basque ancestry. I can definitely relate. NO ONE messes with my children!

[ES]

you are a great mother, and your kids sound wonderful. I love hearing that your daughter created a special needs group for her brother. My own son (6 years old) is ASD, and his big sister (9 years old) looks after him in all things- i hope one day she'd be as creative as your daughter. It's just so sad that colleges and grad schools have swung this way. It's really creating a horrible division. I hope your daughter has continued success and is able to ignore the hate that the left is fostering. She will go far in life. The haters will not

[Sarah]

Plumbers make good money and do something needed.

[Donna Marie Valentine]

I agree - we had them in 3 generations of our family! However, if you were to ever choose a person to be your doctor - you would choose my Colleen. She is bright, extremely hard working and has the third quality missing from most, she is genuinely caring about people. I do believe God sent her 13 months after her brother, Shane, diagnosed on the autistic spectrum to help him. I always told her that she is not responsible for her brother but that she and her sister are responsible to love him. I was told that he would not speak nor ever be mainstreamed. I chose not to listen to those people, many who were "professionals." I went back out to work full time to pay for all of his Lovaas ABA therapy (age 3 started the program of 44 hrs of 1:1 therapy a week, 5 hours of speech, 3 hours of OT, Social Skills Training, Shadows for sports/activities etc.) We moved, fought school districts in court and finally did get him mainstreamed. He began running at age 6, which is how I treated his adhd, after 1 year of trying medications and how it affected him, I said no more, never again! It is not as easy as giving a pill, but I will never put his health, his kidneys and liver in jeopardy etc. He ran through middle school and 12 seasons at a top, public high school with his 2 sisters, earing varsity letters in XC, Winter and Spring Track on a team always in the top 3 of the state of NJ! He was awarded the coach's trophy his Junior year to 200 people giving a standing ovation for his dedication and perseverance! All these years his sisters, and particularly his sister Colleen have loved him, encouraged him and supported him. When he was to go on to high school the Child Study Team wanted him to go to the sister high school, because that is where they had the "in class" special needs class already established. Most all the kids from his middle school; however, go onto the other (more academic) high school. I admit that at that point I was worn down and thought maybe that is where he should go. I will never forget, my then 14 year old daughter said to me "No, Mom, Shane has a right to go to school with all the kids he has known all these years!" I grabbed her and hugged her and my spirit was back! I marched down to that CST meeting, by myself, and said "This is what we are going to do!" We created a schedule with pull out classes and as much mainstreaming as possible and of course I had his physical completed (that's what school nurses do) and sent in for him to start practice in the summer with Colleen! She even created an after school club for special needs students for her brother and the other kids to have a fun place to go and do great things for her Girl Scout Gold Award (while she played 5 sports and took 9 AP classes). I share this, because all she has done all these years, all that she is, is exactly the kind of person we need as a medical doctor, especially in today's world! Shane has continued with his running and actually came in first in the town 5K. I am training him so he can run in the "Tunnel to Tower" run in NYC in September. Ironically, my sister-in-law heads up "Team Shamrock" out of Spring Lake, NJ who works with Mr. Siller for this amazing event! Her "Irish" nephew can run on her team, ha ha!

[Sarah]

Brave mama! I had a different but similar situation...my son became an advanced chess player, then learned how to skip ;) He's always been very sensitive and attuned to the emotions of others and is one of the most amazing, helpful humans I knew. Fortunately, he never received a jab.

[Sarah]

I agree we need to infiltrate the "professions" and politics with unbought, loving, creative whole people!

[Cheryl B.]

Agreed. My ex-husband and both father in-laws were plumbers and very successful.

[Sarah]

I had this convo with a (medical) student: First she described having a ceremony to honor the cadavers and it was really meaningful. Then she described a personal medical situation where she really need to have autonomy in the decision-making process. I then mentioned the need for autonomy in prophylactic care. A few minutes later I asked her if she felt that those who opt out of vaccintion should be killed, like in the holocaust. She said, "Well I wouldn't call it that but...I DO think it's okay to not let them work." This in spite of knowing about the study early on from Massacusetts showing same same transmission in vaxed and unvaxed, she was still saying there was a family conflict and she didin't want to let an unvaxed relative around her grandma...logic FAIL. She is a good person, so I hope she recovers her critical thinking and ability to allow it to merge with her compassion to expand her heart as well as her discernment.

[Donna Marie Valentine]

First of all, I love your post name - how cute! Second, this is extremely upsetting to me. As a nurse (BSN/Masters) for 30 years now, certified school nurse (NJ), worked in pharmacovigilance for 17 years (drug safety/drug info) and having a son, now 25, diagnosed on the autistic spectrum with adhd at age 2.5, I have been immersed in this arena both professionally and personally. You are absolutely right in that this individual who was "accepted" into medical school does not demonstrate any ability with critical thinking skills or for that matter thinking for herself. I do see though, through both of my girls, one in college, the other with a BS in Clinical Neuroscience, her Masters in Biomedical Science from Duke in 1 year, (during covid lockdown) and her EMT, studying for her mcats to go to medical school, just how the left truly has infiltrated our schools (even the medical part of Duke) with this fake propaganda information not based in science at all! The fact that most places have stopped the "mask mandate" here in NJ except when you go to see the "doctor or dentist" just blows my mind! How can we have any faith in our medical providers when they are still masking and forcing you to put on a mask in the waiting room only to take it off in the dentist's chair! Does everyone see just how farcical that is from a scientific standpoint! I said from the beginning two years ago - regular mask do NOT stop a virus! They do cause you to decrease your O2 intake, re-breathe your CO2, trap bacteria, irritate your skin and of course all the levels of psychological damage etc. Nothing that has been done regarding "covid" and the subsequent forced lockdown and forcing of "fake" vaccines follows any public health protocol. I will start with the most blatant absurdity! The left forces lockdowns, masking, shuts down schools, forced "vaccinations" etc., all the while Biden et al have our southern borders wide open allowing any and all to come in without any testing, quarantine, treatment of "illegals" bringing God knows what into our country just from a medical standpoint. We have gone backwards. In the 1800's through Ellis Isle they knew to check everyone coming in "legally" and used quarantine practices etc. to prevent illnesses/diseases being brought into our country. You do not "vaccinate" an entire population. Those that are not at risk (in this case children through young adults) you would never "vaccinate," but would test for natural immunity! You triage and most definitely protect your most vulnerable/immunocompromised, which would be our elderly and look at what the five Democratic Governors did - purposely put ill people back into the nursing homes, causing them to become ill and die and prevented their loved ones from seeing them! They wanted to kill off the greatest generation who actually love our country, fought for our country and its founding principles and would stand up to this communistic NWO takeover. They also wanted to get rid of the "elderly" and use this to falsely elevate the death rate to use that as reason to lockdown, vaccinate etc. It has all been planned. This young person you speak of may be a "good" person, but in medicine we need people with brains that can think for themselves and not easily be brainwashed into agendas! My daughter did listen to me when I told her not to get this fake vaccine. She was the last hold out in her graduate class. They stated they would not let her complete her clinicals and thereby the program if she did not. So of course since she has worked so hard to go to medical school she succumbed. My younger one of course is surrounded by "all the college kids" needing to get vaxxed in order to go to school. When the university asked for the younger one to get the second "chicken pox" vaccine, because I did not give it to her - I said wait, had her titer drawn, it was sufficient AND THE UNIVERSITY ACCEPTED THIS AS PROOF OF HER IMMUNITY! In medicine you are SUPPOSED to work from a least invasive approach and move up, knowing full well that all drugs have the potential for side effects, some extremely serious and even lethal. You do not just go around arbitrarily injecting individuals if it is not necessary. Well it was NOT necessary and now our children have had this poison injected into their bodies with the potential for life altering side effects and even death when they were not at risk to begin with! Perhaps this "medical" student could start reading the real data coming out on the devastating fall out of these fake vaccines and work a few days in drug safety taking calls from families on the devastation to their families. Have her start with listening to Dr. Simone Gold!

[mzlizzi]

I really wish students of all kinds would defer or cancel their “higher” education and not “succumb.” I know there are some out there.

For if they don’t sacrifice, and if they continue to sell out, then we (and they) are going to be stuck with a bunch of complicit “believers” for whom we should have little respect.

[Sarah]

Thank you for your comment on my name :) I throw a good swear once in a while but love and truth are my founding principles ;) We need nurses like you (and doctors ) - not all doctors are sold out but it's not a safe place to speak up. "They also wanted to get rid of the "elderly" and use this to falsely elevate the death rate to use that as reason to lockdown, vaccinate etc." I had this same thought! I watched with indirect inside view as early on they refused to test people who should have been tested and blamed doctors who tested when they didn't meet arbitrary protocols (even if the person tested positive.) Never mind the junk the PCR is, not even based on the virus.

[Joe Doe]

She's not a good person. You don't need critical thinking skills to understand that punishing unvaccinated people is wrong. Just basic emphaty. Good persons don't buy this bullshit.

[Donna Marie Valentine]

I so agree. And you know she is all about the latest "social justice" of discrimination against "marginalized" groups etc. We need to invent a new word, because "hypocrisy" doesn't seem to truly cover her thinking! And here in NJ my young adult son, who is autistic, just received dispensation from the Pope (Governor Murphy/CDC/ and DDD (Department of Developmental Disabilities) that the autistic young adults in my son's Day Program who are "vaccinated" can now unmask, BUT those that are NOT vaccinated still have to wear the mask! First of all, we all know those that received these "fake" vaccines can get covid, transmit covid and die from covid! So it is beyond ridiculous and not based in any science or fact that you would allow "vaccinated" to unmask but require "unvaccinated" to still have to wear a mask. The masks never stopped a virus to begin with, let's just start there! So of course those that would still have to wear a mask would be singled out (as this "medical" student" wishes to do to "unvaccinated" individuals!). If she is so supportive of the fake "vaccine" and thinks it does anything to "protect" people from a "virus" a "cold" then why does she have any concern over the "unvaccinated" to begin with? And if she is so concerned about the "unvaccinated" why is she supportive of the "open borders" we have (which I am sure she is) where millions are pouring in with no detention, no testing, no quarantine, no "vacciantions" etc. -

- please explain that inconsistency! Of course I did not put this poison into my "autistic" son! The fact that all these parents ran out and had their "autistic" young adults injected with an experimental drug with no safety data blows my mind. With their autistic children now young adults they have had plenty of time to learn about the connections of vaccinations to autism and the scientific fact that autistic individuals have a harder time eliminating heavy metals from their systems etc. I could go on - there is so much more. So that aspect infuriates me and saddens me to no end. Why don't they just put a gold star on my autistic son to let everyone know he is "not vaccinated" just like the Jews in the Holocaust? Well there was one sentence that stated that you do not have to wear a mask if it interferes with your disability etc. So of course I wrote back stating that it most definitely does and he will no longer be wearing a mask! I could have used this from the beginning. I did change him over to the clear face shield as soon as I found out that was "accepted" - which of course does nothing, but allowed him to breathe etc. The one's that are being punished are the one's that took the fake vaccine. More and more information is coming out and will come out regarding the devastating harm they are doing.

[The98thmonkey]

Can you just imagine the comments in response to advertising your children as bisexual twins 🤢

Ffs what were they thinking?

[Donna Marie Valentine]

Well to be completely accurate, the "girl" twin was "bi-sexual" and what appeared to be the "boy twin" was "non-binary!" There is just so much wrong on so many levels with this whole thing. And people are not standing up to say no - this is not acceptable and is very damaging to our children and our society! Oh, I left out that this "mother" apparently, conveniently worked for an infertility company and therefore, "after the horrific divorce" decided she did not want to get married again but wanted children so she just got inseminated (I guess) and had these twins (which of course having multiple children increases with this process). If all this was not too much to digest, the fact that she poisoned her children to the point where they said "they did not need a father" truly bothers me for many reasons! These children are a direct product of her indoctrination and it is very sad. And then she brings it to our beautiful, used to be "conservative" town, and of course got a "liberal" reporter to put it in the town magazine! If you want the narrative of hating men, hating fathers, screwing up your children's identities, hating white people keep it in California! We are allowing our children and our country to be destroyed!

[Mike]

I disagree. Many Republicans have drifted to the left. True conservatives are digging in and some may be moving further right. I include myself in the latter.

[Dawn K]

One of the reasons I often voted for Dems is because I am pro-choice. I didn’t leave the Democratic Party, they left me! Now, the same people that didn’t want politicians in the doctors office want to mandate experimental crap. And the same people who were worried that republicans would censor history books are now promoting censorship. And the same people that didn’t want endless wars in the Middle East are now war mongering. And they don’t see it!

[NE - nakedemperor.substack.com]

I didn't leave the left, the left left me

[Barney Rubble]

Single issue voting for Bill Clinton was a seminal catalyst to arriving where we are today.

[Sally]

I don't think they want to admit it and want you to have blinders on as well. I'm pro choice as well but have for the most part voted republican. I won't vote for a single issue and even if the conservatives manage to overturn Roe vs Wade, it seems like it's immaterial because they can't get rid of morning after pills, etc, but I wish the conservatives wouldn't hyper focus on this issue.

[SCA]

I consider abortion to be a necessary evil, and I find the political decision by Democrats to celebrate it and to use semantics to attempt to disguise its reality to be both revolting and politically self-sabotaging.

This to me is a real test of courage and every Democrat in politics has failed it. The Republicans, of course, fail too, but in a different way.

[Daniel Kirsner]

I was a "small-l libertarian" in 2008, 2012, 2021 and remain one today; one interesting thing from my vantage point is that many of the supposedly "libertarian" institutions (REASON, for example) have been co-opted by the same evil forces that have taken control of the FDA, CDC, ACLU, etc.

[mzlizzi]

True, REASON ain’t what it used to be. It is rather unbearable.

[Bigs]

Unreasonable, even?

[Richard Seager]

The left has been corporatised.

[Jasmine]

Yes, this ^

All politics have been corporatized for a long time, of course, but corporate interests have merged with socio-cultural identities on the left.

[mzlizzi]

They had to after the 2007 crash.

Wall Street had to cover its ass and went all “Social Impact.”

Business school students were indoctrinated accordingly—to change the world, etc. We’re feeling that Social Impact now.

[Jasmine]

Yes. I can see now what a long road it's been...

[Good Citizen]

It's just semantics. Conservatism hasn't changed much, by its nature. Liberalism has come to mean progressivism or illiberalism or insanity. If "more liberal" was accurate it would say "more illiberal" and the blue line would be horizontal.

[John Carter]

Semantics is surely an important component. 'Liberal' is now code for something like 'corporate Maoist'.

On the other hand, 'conservatism' is a dead label, particularly amongst young rightists who tend to describe themselves as reactionaries or simply the dissident right. Further, the stance of the dissident right is observably far more revolutionary than that of conservatism. Where conservatives sought to defend the existing order, neo-reactionaries seek to upend it. They want to replace the elite, not protect it. While many of the core beliefs haven't changed (e.g. a commitment to liberty), the basic orientation of the new right towards power is almost the polar opposite of that taken by conservatives.

[Modern Discontent]

The issue is whether it is necessary to focus on what side of the political spectrum we are on, or if we should examine the policies that align with our beliefs and see where that puts us. I think people are far too concerned about being "labeled" on one side. This just results in reactive politics where people may say they are "right-leaning" because the left has gone "too far left". I'm learning that right now, and I'm trying to teach myself to step back, find where my ideas and values lie, and then see who or what have similar ideas.

[Lee Muller]

I have always felt this way. The issues should be the focus.

With the proposed 10 billion+ dollar Cures 2.0 Act on the table, now is the time to call out the 120 Democratic and 91 Republican Representatives currently in the U.S. Congress who voted to pass the multi-billion dollar BIPARTISAN 21st Century Cures Act (2016) that enabled uninformed consent and pushed "Real World Evidence" during the past two years. - RightingTheWrongs.org

Contact our officials to hold them accountable to: preserve our Constitutional rights by ending and preventing mandates, compensate and provide help to the vaccine injured, and remove liability protection enacted through the PREP Act (2005 and 2020).

[SCA]

100%.

[John Carter]

Personal experience suggests the truth is somewhere in between. There's no question that the left has moved to a dramatic and absurd extreme. On the other hand, I'd be dishonest if I didn't admit that, partly in reaction to this, I'd moved further to the right over the same period. The Overton Window of the online dissident right is certainly far more reactionary now than it was a decade or more back - the discourse has moved well beyond taxation rates, and has become proto-revolutionary in character.

[Sean K]

I think it's time to retire the concept of Left vs Right. As others have pointed out, both parties in the USA are pro corporate and don't care at all about the common citizen. I don't know enough about the UK to say if the same is true there. The media (and social media) has successfully convinced self identified Liberals in the USA to embrace policies that are the polar opposite of what they believed previously. People's desire to belong to a tribe is more powerful than reason and Liberals are especially blind to the fact that their emotions are really in the drivers seat and not their intellects.

[carol ann]

I agree. The divide is now between freedom and slavery.

[The98thmonkey]

The divide is between the globalists and The People

It always has been but we were too dumb to see it

Thanks to the plandemic we are all awake to it

NCSWIC

[carol ann]

Well, some are but most are not.

[Michael]

Agree, but I think the magicians behind the curtain are successfully (as shown by the graphs in this post) creating a divide. I remember realizing my aunt and I both supported the US constitution despite being on opposite side of political spectrum. (Until center moved just as in Musk’s diagram. ) So how do we expose the divide and conquer they use to push through extreme 1984 / CCP ideology like the Ministry of Truth aka Board of Disinformation? How can the libs possibly think this is a good thing? They are complaining about the danger of free speech on Twitter with the new ownership under Elon Musk. All the invented stuff they feared Trump would do (imaginary) they are doing. NYTimes (I think) Liberals talk about setting up political prison camps. Siberia in America- astonishing. Mass formation psychosis as Robert Malone says.

[Sean K]

Yes, as long as there is an Us vs Them paradigm we all will lose. Very few people can see through this. The pandemic fooled more people than usual because it used Fear + "Science" so Liberals went jumping off of cliffs like lemmings. It's going to take a very charismatic person with a large audience for the masses to ever listen to reason. Fame is one thing that can burst through the mass psychosis I think.

[JP]

I don’t think the true Right has actually moved much, except to wake up to more of what is actually going on.

[Barney Rubble]

I don't yet believe enough people are paying attention to make enough of a difference. If you would vote for any Democrat, you have not been paying attention. Sadly in American politics we most often have to choose between the lesser or 2 evils and the differential has been quite miniscule since perhaps Reagan and likely much earlier. We do not have a representative government anymore due to fraudulent elections, lack of term limits, and the general perceived well being of the populace creating a malaise of apathy towards political accountability - with a smidge of helplessness in feeling that your vote matters ever more less each election cycle.

[Pawsative]

‘Liberal’ belongs in the center of Elon’s chart. The left isn’t liberal at all. Conservatives are the new liberals not necessarily because they embrace liberal values but because they embrace that liberal values should peacefully co-exist. The left doesn’t believe conservative values should exist at all.

[InfoHog]

Yes. A lot of people the wokesters label "right" call themselves "classic liberals", such as "Sargon of Akkad" aka Carl Benjamin. Looking sober at his ideas of the world, that seems a pretty fair self-assessment.

[SCA]

When I described myself as having the viewpoints of a "classic liberal" I was told (by someone who is generally otherwise quite sensible) that was a label that libertarians hide behind...

[InfoHog]

There's some expectable overlap between the two, which he could try real hard to figure out by thinking about the actual meaning of the words "liberal", "liberty", and such... just a suggestion...

It may not be obvious if the person thinks "liberal" as a description of people who call themselves that today, as opposed to a bunch of frauds misusing a historical label, which necessitates the use of alternate labels for actual liberals to make it clear. Saying "classical liberal" is rather a polite way to say "not one of those frauds".

[Disgustedwithallofit]

Well said.

I might add that Liberals also have become hyper-judgmental and hyper-intolerant to the point of ascribing evil motives and intent to anyone who doesn’t hold their values.

I never thought I’d see the day . . .

[Pawsative]

They simply aren’t liberals, they are leftists. All the liberals I know either became independent or republicans. The more they find out about what’s going on - particularly the freaks who are brainwashing children and the political commissars appointed over them at work - they will mostly all switch. Few know what has really been going on with abortion in demand and the vast corruption.

[Copernicus]

Your comment that the Right doesn’t think conservative values should exist at all is a very different view of the Right than what I grew up hearing and believing. As someone who has considered myself to be on the Right.

I am sorta feeling like maybe Right has come to mean those waaayyyyy out on the edges who believe, for instance, that Trump was close to divine, the Declaration was God-inspired, homosexual people should be imprisoned, and women who kill their unborn children should also go to prison. Or things along those lines.

The folks I grew up with and around never believed these things, and identified as Right and conservative.

When did the two terms become non-synonymous? How much of this has been due to media portrayal of Right as extreme? Genuine questions.

Over the last two years as I have listened to folks like RFK Jr, Brett Weinstein and his wife Heather, and Dr. Malone, I have been quite pleased to see how many First Principles we all share - folks who are definitely not Right per se, but clearly not Leftist. It’s also pretty notable listening to folks like Weinstein realize why, exactly, things like the second amendment actually really do matter and really are not right/left issues but are fundamental to any free people.

[Pawsative]

Sorry, that was a typo. Meant to say the left

[Copernicus]

Ahhh, that makes a lot more sense! Thanks!

[Joe Van Steenbergen]

You know, maintaining the false left-right narrative plays into the hands of those who want us to focus on just this and divert our attention from the ongoing and future tyranny. Just saying.

[Kirsten Dumford]

I'm not sure a lot of people fit into left and right categories. The media talks about them as if all characteristics would cleanly encompass the perspectives of people one way or another. I think it's a way to make the propaganda messaging easier, and easier to sew division in the population. Two camps, Democrat versus Republican, is largely a media creation, not a natural outcome of people interacting with one another.

I think our government should have balanced the books long ago, and financially the chickens have come home to roost. I think strong defense is important, and using that defense to invade countries has been disastrous for America in many ways. I am pro gay marriage. I think denying biology should not be a part of trans rights. I'm horrified that the political left has moved fascist regarding vaccine mandates and censored speech. I think abortion should be a choice, and I do contemplate the moral issue involved. I am for restitution for slavery and the domestic terrorism that came afterwards. I am pro border protection, and limited globalism.

[Martin Bassani]

The left has not moved leftward. The left was transformed into a weapon of the Global Cap without it ever becoming self-aware of its metamorphosis. From pro workers to anti-workers, from pro free speech to anti free speech, from anti war to pro war, from being worried about concentration of power, to absolute totalitarians, from anti deep state structures to pro deep state, etc. This is a monumental achievement. The only movement the left was encouraged into is in the direction of lunacy of post-modernist nonsense. This was an incredibly effective misdirection from traditional class warfare thinking. The majority of the Left became Good Germans.

[atomic sagebrush]

It may be true. I have changed my thinking on some things I was always quite liberal on, simply because the left dropped their mask and I realized things that seemed good and pure were really a frontispiece for an agenda that I despised. Does that make me more conservative ~really~ I'm not sure, but it probably looks that way to organizations like the Pew Research Center.

[Copernicus]

🎯🎯🎯

[Vxi7]

My feeling that both side moved but left definitely moved more.

But after the last 2 years: absolutely lost all belief in every political institution around the world. To argue about left/right is meaningless. They clearly do not represent and definitely do not care about us.

[cat]

I see no move to the right regarding those Republicans in the House of Representatives or the Senate. Most all of them have done NOTHING to fight the increasing censorship and controls/mandates being pushed onto American citizens. In fact, most of them (including the worthless Kevin McCarthy) have sided with the leftists and encouraged them to crack down on our rights even more. I feel that none of the "right" currently in power are truly conservative at all.

[SCA]

(When people with spatial orientation problems try to read graphs--and this only happens to me in terms of politics and it might be because I'm from the East Coast--but I think of the Right as being on the western side, or, uh, where my left hand is, and the Left on the eastern side (ending up eventually in, you know, Russia), or where my right hand is. So I had to look hard to find Elon...)

But to your question: Far as I'm concerned, anyone who identifies as capital letter Democrat or Republican has forsworn serious discernment. Neither party adheres to the principles with which it purports to--uh--identify. To me, both parties are extreme in their views on everything.

It's only people who declare themselves to be independents who I feel I have anything in common with, politically.

[The Beach Is My Bliss]

It's not about left and right. When will Elon realize this? It's only about liberty v. tyranny now.

[Sarah]

Look up the definition of liberal in Merriam Webster. It references generosity and anti-authoritarianism among other qualities. I feel like people on the left generally are nicer online unless you trigger their brainshed areas. People who claim to be truthers on the right are often assholes. If you combined kindness and libertariansim you would get actually a more accurate definition of liberal.

[Rich]

Elon Musk's post is exactly how I feel at the moment. However, I dislike labels of any kind because they give people the chance to pigeonhole you. One thing I have learned in the past few years is that everything is much more complex than it seems.

[Atom]

I've been saying it for years… I didn't leave the left, the left left me.

[Barney Rubble]

Musk's line chart should be a circle by drawing the left and right ends up to "12 o'clock" at 12 should be labeled ABSURD or Bat-Shit-Crazy.

[Sarah]

What party is this: Incentivizes local businesses and holds big corp/big tech/big agri/big ANYTHING accountable in real ways. Supports BOTH kinds of body sovereignty. Creaties societies that feed the good wolf, bring out the best in everyone and nurture compassion and responsibility as well as a freedom within a context of mutualism, interdependency and unity (aka we are all part of a natural ecoystem of Mother Earth and that is WHY we reject a corporate elitist Internet of Things/People that hurts oceans, pollinators and humans alike, while we also seek out regenerative farming practices that restore our role as stewards rather than exploiters of mother earth's resources and guests within her very body. We refuse to frack. We are loving and gentle people who are capable of using free energy responsible and therefore are able to access such technologies.

[Mdog]

Define "the right." I know what the left is doing. What has the so-called "right" been doing? Seems to me that there is no real "right." It looks to me as though the left has been pushing for more and more government control over every aspect of our lives, and the so-called right is just trying to not lose ground. The "right" is just a political meme developed by the left to use as a boogeyman to divide society and consolidate power. Read George Orwell (and Marx, for that matter) and it will all become very clear.

[ACSD]

By what metrics do they judge what position is centrist? I am way more conservative than I used to be because the lies of liberalism have been revealed to be destructive for individuals and society (personal liberation increases through feminism, socialism, etc...). Also, anecdotally I think it's true people become more conservative as they age...So, are we all older and know better now? I hope so.

[Unaffiliated]

As an American, I can tell you only Joe Manchin and Krysten Sinema are remotely moderate Democrats on a national level. The days of Sam Nunn and JFK are long gone. They’d be considered right wingers today. Most of the mean woke progressives are white, rich and college educated. Most of them do not live what they preach. Think BLM front yard signs in their lily white neighborhood- hell no they aren’t moving… or Climate Action Now signs in front of their 4000sq foot homes, but the do drive a Tesla… They can be some of the meanest and nastiest people you’d ever want to know.

The hard right has gone cookoo - think Marjorie Taylor Green. I’m not sure if someone like her even has core beliefs. We need more Reagan’s and JFKs and less nuts.

[David Walker]

I shifted when the “left went bonkers” (thanks to my friend D A fir introducing me to this phrase) and when all my liberal,friends endorsed state media censorship and support for the WEF

[KW NORTON]

Clear things have changed, lol. Elon points out the obvious most of us have felt for decades. He is playing catch up. People are really confused about Left and Right today. These used to mean totally different things. Basically we can see "Right" as moving towards fundamental agreements about the wisdom of our founding documents, basic human moral choices which support such beliefs as freedom of speech, human rights, liberty & equality. The "Left" is associated with actual fascism and the opposite of what "Right" translates to in the public imagination. The Left has repeatedly shot themselves in the proverbial feet. Now we must see if the process for electing new leaders actually works and if, given free elections, we get what we actually support.

[Brien]

Musk’s conception is correct if you focus simply on the 3 lines and not so much on the annotation. The scale has definitely expanded, meaning the scope of acceptable values and behavior is much wider than it was 60 years ago, or even 25 years ago, something which the Economist’s depiction misses altogether. The Overton Window has shifted and expanded, continuously and at varying rates, leftward since the end of WWII, slowly at first but with increasing velocity up until (arguably) very recently(2022). What is taken for “normal” on the nightly news today would have been gross perversion or absurdity 60 years ago. This affects everyone, and the constantly leftward moving Overton Window has had subtle and insidious effects on all of public and private life, from the school board meeting to the family dinner table to acceptable public discourse, dress, education, law, government policy(especially), etc. Nothing has been left untouched, and most people over 50 who claim to be conservative are not even aware of how their own personal Overton Window has shifted left under the influence of the massive leftward shift that has taken place in society, rendering normative values taken for granted in 1950 or 1960 as obsolete, or worse, even criminal.

But the cultural landscape has grown much more complex recently and is only now starting to shift in new directions, akin to a glacier or river that has suddenly encountered new terrain, something new that would alter its’ course or check its’ flow.

So culturally and politically words like conservative and liberal, Republican and Democrat, even left and right, are being redefined from an historical basis in ways perceptible but unclear at the same time. People are searching for a new compass and are discovering or rediscovering who they are and where they stand in this upside down world, on this new and shifting ground, every day, if they can keep their feet.

[deleted]

Comment deleted

[SCA]

The cultural heritage that informed the Founders was the Western Enlightenment. The ideals of the Enlightenment grew from the desire to transcend sectarianism in a Europe that had been ravaged for centuries by warfare between Christian sects.

But the human instinct towards tribalism makes it awfully hard to cling to ideals that demand no stark labels.

[deleted]

Comment deleted

[SCA]

Your final sentence, absolutely. I think "atheistic" is incorrect. Many of them were, I'd wager, like me--I believe in a Creator I have no need to define (and recognize that human language is inadequate for doing so) and I don't believe in any dogma at all. People struggle with that concept because they want rules around which to center faith, so they know whom to exclude from the lists of the elect.

[shasta]

Definitely, the right parties have moved to the left. That's why we have witnessed a surge of patritic/nationalist parties. Those new parties say the same things the conservative parties said 10 years ago.

[The98thmonkey]

I wish I had time to draw my own UK version 🇬🇧 ( maybe someone else can do it 🙏🏻)

I would make the centre fulcrum an actual pivot point to display the balance in society

And there would be 2 columns

The column on the left would represent reality

The column in the right would represent the media idea of how society looks and it’s clarity would represent the relevance of its message and how much sway it has in society

In 2016 the majority of the country would be on the right but the media version will display precisely the opposite

Each year would display the growing disparity between reality and how the media is showing things

Below the end of each row would be a toilet icon or loony bin and the left would get progressively closer to it until the 2023 reality line shows no one on the left and just legs sticking out from the toilet and the media representation so feint as to be virtually unreadable.

WE are the news now!

Blogs like this prove it

“The unintended consequence of oppressing The People is that they wake up to Tyranny” 💉💡⏰💥

[Sathanas Juggernaut]

I like to know how Pew!Pew! arrived at their conclusion. I'm pretty sure Pew!Pew! are among the deeply corrupt pollsters who are more interested in trying to shape political thinking than to sample it (and shamelessly help Democrat candidates by giving them positive polling numbers, which always makes them look bad when they inevitably fail to accurately predict results)

[MR2]

In my view, the discussion is pointless without knowing *how* liberal and conservative were defined and measured. My hunch is that they’re not the same in the two studies. Compounding the issue is that the social understanding of “liberal” has changed over time.

Libertarians (as they’re called here in the US) are currently the most liberal by the classical understanding of the word. Often misunderstood by everyday folk is that libertarians themselves split into left/right types. What unites them is a power-distribution ideology and common understanding of the problem set. What separates them is typically the nature of their proposed solutions. For that reason, I think the libertarians both left and right are the most practical political force in the US right now. But they’re not really united or focused. But, that’s to be expected, because it’s antithetical to the ideology that unites them. Tough nut to crack for sure.

Modern political discussions between “left” and “right” can’t even get off the ground because the problem sets seem to only intersect where corporate corruption and govt capture generate wealth and power. Any problem involving the citizens is perceived so differently that debates over potential solutions are impossible.

Worse still, IMO, is how the everyday folk are played into fighting each other so the powers that be can continue consolidating wealth and power. Us everyday folk are convinced that the left/right problem sets are largely distinct, and that the other side is fundamentally inhumane. We’re fooled into yelling at each other like rabid dogs, completely unaware that most of the problems we face as everyday folk are the same. There’s no space for healthy debate around solutions. These “studies” by the Economist and Pew Research seem to be distracting us again.

When the recent debates over statue removal and dismantling were taking place, my friend asked a question which I think captures the essence of what I’m driving at: “why are we spending so much energy on dead powers that be when we should be addressing the current powers that be?” Answer: divide and conquer.

In my not so humble opinion, we need to stop playing into their hands. First order of business would be establishing a non-trivial political force whose priority is dictating the problem set on behalf of the everyday folk. Once that problem set is firmly established, then debates over the possible solutions can be had. Importantly, that political force cannot offer solutions because that force would then fracture into a thousand sub groups and we’d be worse off for it. Their role should be problem definitions and keeping everyone on task, with no explicit endorsement of particular solutions. They should have a fundamentally adversarial relationship with the power structure. They should have the role of moderators. They used to be known as the (free) press.

[Wil]

Reminds me of the interview of Bill Maher on Joe Rogan when Maher said that his position on the left hasn’t changed and that it’s the left that has moved farther away and they they have gone goofy.

[philipat]

“This illustration from the Economist shows that the left have moved the furthest but the right have also moved, just not as much.”

I actually disagree that’s what the Chart shows. In fact what it shows is that the right has remained in exactly the same place but the Center has shifted left by virtue of a new spectrum “average" after the "progressive" left moved hard left. That's why the "old left" is now right of the old center.

[MR2]

Average the medians. You’ll see it’s moved “left”. Whatever that means.

[philipat]

Look down the right margin. It didn't move. The center moved and the left moved. This is only a schematic representation no a mathematical model?

[MR2]

Impossible to know for sure without knowing definitions and methods.

[Sarah]

Russell Brand (who has been labeled a rightist in spite of his favorite candidate beingpro-Bernie Sanders) does a great job of showing how right and left are irrelevant and outdated concepts.

[Jay Antani]

That graph is so wrong it's both depressing and stupid that people believe it. My views as a liberal (economic reforms incl. universal healthcare, expansion of union representation, free college education for all, imposition of wealth tax, taxing Wall St speculation, etc.) have not changed. What changed is that the bait-and-switch used-car salesman Obama bailed out banks, took his cues from Citibank, saw the eviction of over 5 million people, dismantled the Occupy Wall St. movement, deployed color revolutions throughout the middle east, made a smoking husk out of Libya as he expanded two wars to seven, and made healthcare a bigger racket and political cudgel than it ever was. Trump and now Biden merely expand on that legacy, and the grotesque neoliberal and neocon policies begun with Nixon, Reagan, Bush Sr., and Clinton. Do NOT believe that idiotic graph. The "left" is exactly where it's always been -- it just has no power. What NPR and The Atlantic tell you is the left is really just a bunch of woke identity traffickers who make noise about trans and gender and abortion issues while neglecting the economic and political plight of the poor and working class. The U.S. is a singularly woke, center-right warmongering nation that routinely ridicules the left because its ruling class cannot countenance any policy that would take a penny from its coffers nor an ounce of power it enjoys over the Fed and the war machine.

[DOK]

Both the left and right seem to never find another issue that they'd like to force upon all others. They both are for wars, never declared and often via proxies. Both have no issue spending our wealth so they can buy more voters and repay donors. Picking sides (fascism or socialism) is a fool's errand if you understand the real power and benefits of limited government that preserves our rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

[Orca]

The society as a whole has shifted left in the past century. Just look at today's Pope compared to previous Popes. Abortion, LGBTQ etc.

[Unacceptable Fringe Minority]

(Classical) Liberals get the bullet too . . .

[Coach Sal Marinello]

We are supposed have faith in data compiled and disseminated by the Left? Seems to me the Right is running on the same things they always have; (relatively) less government intrusion, (relatively) less government spending, minimizing abortion, lower taxes. Shades of these positions, to the Right, are hardly the equivalent to the paradigm shifts to the Left by the Left, such as abortion past birth, destroying the American fuel industry, insisting men are women and vice versa, censorship, no national borders, etc.

[la chevalerie vit]

“ is this representative of the everyday citizen? “ - hypothetically speaking, if the representatives don’t represent the people then where would that leave a constitutional republic formed to assure representation?

[NE - nakedemperor.substack.com]

2022?

[la chevalerie vit]

That would make for an interesting graph. Maybe even a tornado chart where the centerline is the baseline leanings for citizens in a district or state as the reference “zero”, and the horizontal bars for each congressman depicting the gap, right or left relative to their citizens.

[InfoHog]

Looking at _parties_ , in Germany, those lower images are pure fantasy. EVERYONE moved left, and our supposed conservative party is hardly discernable from the "Social Democrats", but partially also in competition with the party calling themselves "The Left".

If I go by what opinions politicians are allowed to publicly hold, also: EVERYONE moved to the left. If you say what "conservatives" said 15 years ago, you'd be publicly demolished as a Nazi and all that stuff - and as usual, facts don't matter either.

Absolutely nobody moved to the right, as in Conservatism.

[InfoHog]

Case in point:

This year, Hendrik Wuest, Minister-president of Northrhine-Westphalia of the party CDU (Christian Democratic Union), said: "The muezzin call can be a contribution to integration".

Of what? The filthy kufar into the Ummah? Otherwise it seems just a tad backwards to me.

But this rape of logic is politicaly expected, and this party is supposedly _the_ big conservative people's party.

(Context: somewhat recently, their prayer calls from the towers have been allowed in Cologne)

[Cheryl B.]

Good question. Personally I’ve moved more conservative as have many of my close friends here in AZ but my friends in blue states have moved more to the left. Most of us weren’t even interested in politics because we didn’t trust any politicians but things shifted when Obama got into office. Like him or not - Trump woke up a lot of people!

[GAU8A]

I think it is true that conservatives have no representation in the US government. They only have people who pander to them, take their donations, and in the end always give the left what they demand. This gives the impression that the country has moved to the left, when it has in fact moved much closer to a desire for complete separation.

[Rikard]

Discuss? Sure thing mate!

1) There is no such thing as "left" or "right" in politics, nor are ideas unique to any one ideology.

Example: the national socialist eugenics and racial programs where based on ideas from british and especially US capitalists and industrialists in the 1910s and early 1920s. It was not a socialist idea at all, at first, but a liberal, democratic and capitalist one. Today, as we are generally not taught this, we think eugenics and national socialism are intrinsically linked.

2) Any idea can belong to any one school of thought: the difference is only in what logic and reason is used to arrive at the desired position. (Exceptions do exist, but are mainly religious in nature; there is f.e. no possibility of being christian, jewish or moslem without advocating that homosexuals be killed - it's the law and word of the god of Abraham.)

Example: lowering taxes is generally seen as right/conservative standpoint, and higher welfare as a left one. But what if income taxes were to be lowered for the income bracket just above (or even under) the sum total of welfare, comparing similar families? That way, the ones earning the least would suddenly have more money not dependent on also qualifying for various welfare projects, while those on welfare have a greater incentiv to try to get a job, without welfare actually having been lowered. So is the idea of lowering taxes a right, or a left idea?

3) Any one person looking at an idea consciously will draw said idea to its logical extremes. That is how pomo-marxists arrive at the idiotic idea that 100% tax and the same income for all regardless of career or work is just and fair and will work - and libertarians that all taxation is theft and that a society without taxes and governement would work perfectly, which is equally retarded. The purpose of "cutting to the bone" re: ideas and the implementation thereof is to see where one might wind up if one isn't very careful: implementation is rather akin to how you stop falling off a tightrope - pragmatism and what observably achieves purpose is what matters, not adherence to -ism or ideological protocol.

Example: a communist, a libertarian and a nomal human is looking at a house on fire. The communist will want to organise a committee and appoint the libertarian as kommissar of the People's brigade for putting out fires, meaning the normal human will be doing all the work. The libertarian will ask what's in it for me and try to negotiate a good deal while the house burns, leaving again the normal human to do all the work since the communist will refuse to participate in such capitalist exploitation. And a normal human sees a house on fire and tries to help, period, end of.

As I annoyed my wife's colleagues at uni to no end, when she was at the insitution of women's studies (gender and queer not having become fashionable buzzwords yet): "How do you hammer in a nail in a feminist way?" You can replace feminist with any ideology.