The illiberal Liberals and the unrighteous Right

[Professor]

Liberalism is dead as a major force in US politics. What passes as liberalism is neo-fascism. Many (not all) were incrementally marched in that direction over the last 15 to 20 years via the effective use of propaganda, party loyalty, and scumbag politicos who played the role and knew exactly what they were doing. Calling a dog a cat does not make a dog a cat. Calling them liberals plays into the masquerade that most of the rank and file 'liberals' don't recognize themselves. It's time to call it what it is and not allow fascism to hide behind 1984 style language. The same with calling the battle against 'disinformation' and 'misinformation' what it really is. It is the censorship that is part of fascist ideology.

[Jimychanga]

The right has actually drifted left, IMO, but the avg citizen has taken a half step right in sheer disgust of the stalinesque tactics of the left and the Davos men.

[Dawn K]

One of the reasons I often voted for Dems is because I am pro-choice. I didn’t leave the Democratic Party, they left me! Now, the same people that didn’t want politicians in the doctors office want to mandate experimental crap. And the same people who were worried that republicans would censor history books are now promoting censorship. And the same people that didn’t want endless wars in the Middle East are now war mongering. And they don’t see it!

[Daniel Kirsner]

I was a "small-l libertarian" in 2008, 2012, 2021 and remain one today; one interesting thing from my vantage point is that many of the supposedly "libertarian" institutions (REASON, for example) have been co-opted by the same evil forces that have taken control of the FDA, CDC, ACLU, etc.

[Richard Seager]

The left has been corporatised.

[Good Citizen]

It's just semantics. Conservatism hasn't changed much, by its nature. Liberalism has come to mean progressivism or illiberalism or insanity. If "more liberal" was accurate it would say "more illiberal" and the blue line would be horizontal.

[Modern Discontent]

The issue is whether it is necessary to focus on what side of the political spectrum we are on, or if we should examine the policies that align with our beliefs and see where that puts us. I think people are far too concerned about being "labeled" on one side. This just results in reactive politics where people may say they are "right-leaning" because the left has gone "too far left". I'm learning that right now, and I'm trying to teach myself to step back, find where my ideas and values lie, and then see who or what have similar ideas.

[John Carter]

Personal experience suggests the truth is somewhere in between. There's no question that the left has moved to a dramatic and absurd extreme. On the other hand, I'd be dishonest if I didn't admit that, partly in reaction to this, I'd moved further to the right over the same period. The Overton Window of the online dissident right is certainly far more reactionary now than it was a decade or more back - the discourse has moved well beyond taxation rates, and has become proto-revolutionary in character.

[Sean K]

I think it's time to retire the concept of Left vs Right. As others have pointed out, both parties in the USA are pro corporate and don't care at all about the common citizen. I don't know enough about the UK to say if the same is true there. The media (and social media) has successfully convinced self identified Liberals in the USA to embrace policies that are the polar opposite of what they believed previously. People's desire to belong to a tribe is more powerful than reason and Liberals are especially blind to the fact that their emotions are really in the drivers seat and not their intellects.

[JP]

I don’t think the true Right has actually moved much, except to wake up to more of what is actually going on.

[Barney Rubble]

I don't yet believe enough people are paying attention to make enough of a difference. If you would vote for any Democrat, you have not been paying attention. Sadly in American politics we most often have to choose between the lesser or 2 evils and the differential has been quite miniscule since perhaps Reagan and likely much earlier. We do not have a representative government anymore due to fraudulent elections, lack of term limits, and the general perceived well being of the populace creating a malaise of apathy towards political accountability - with a smidge of helplessness in feeling that your vote matters ever more less each election cycle.

[Pawsative]

‘Liberal’ belongs in the center of Elon’s chart. The left isn’t liberal at all. Conservatives are the new liberals not necessarily because they embrace liberal values but because they embrace that liberal values should peacefully co-exist. The left doesn’t believe conservative values should exist at all.

[Joe Van Steenbergen]

You know, maintaining the false left-right narrative plays into the hands of those who want us to focus on just this and divert our attention from the ongoing and future tyranny. Just saying.

[Kirsten Dumford]

I'm not sure a lot of people fit into left and right categories. The media talks about them as if all characteristics would cleanly encompass the perspectives of people one way or another. I think it's a way to make the propaganda messaging easier, and easier to sew division in the population. Two camps, Democrat versus Republican, is largely a media creation, not a natural outcome of people interacting with one another.

I think our government should have balanced the books long ago, and financially the chickens have come home to roost. I think strong defense is important, and using that defense to invade countries has been disastrous for America in many ways. I am pro gay marriage. I think denying biology should not be a part of trans rights. I'm horrified that the political left has moved fascist regarding vaccine mandates and censored speech. I think abortion should be a choice, and I do contemplate the moral issue involved. I am for restitution for slavery and the domestic terrorism that came afterwards. I am pro border protection, and limited globalism.

[Martin Bassani]

The left has not moved leftward. The left was transformed into a weapon of the Global Cap without it ever becoming self-aware of its metamorphosis. From pro workers to anti-workers, from pro free speech to anti free speech, from anti war to pro war, from being worried about concentration of power, to absolute totalitarians, from anti deep state structures to pro deep state, etc. This is a monumental achievement. The only movement the left was encouraged into is in the direction of lunacy of post-modernist nonsense. This was an incredibly effective misdirection from traditional class warfare thinking. The majority of the Left became Good Germans.

[atomic sagebrush]

It may be true. I have changed my thinking on some things I was always quite liberal on, simply because the left dropped their mask and I realized things that seemed good and pure were really a frontispiece for an agenda that I despised. Does that make me more conservative ~really~ I'm not sure, but it probably looks that way to organizations like the Pew Research Center.

[Vxi7]

My feeling that both side moved but left definitely moved more.

But after the last 2 years: absolutely lost all belief in every political institution around the world. To argue about left/right is meaningless. They clearly do not represent and definitely do not care about us.

[cat]

I see no move to the right regarding those Republicans in the House of Representatives or the Senate. Most all of them have done NOTHING to fight the increasing censorship and controls/mandates being pushed onto American citizens. In fact, most of them (including the worthless Kevin McCarthy) have sided with the leftists and encouraged them to crack down on our rights even more. I feel that none of the "right" currently in power are truly conservative at all.

[SCA]

(When people with spatial orientation problems try to read graphs--and this only happens to me in terms of politics and it might be because I'm from the East Coast--but I think of the Right as being on the western side, or, uh, where my left hand is, and the Left on the eastern side (ending up eventually in, you know, Russia), or where my right hand is. So I had to look hard to find Elon...)

But to your question: Far as I'm concerned, anyone who identifies as capital letter Democrat or Republican has forsworn serious discernment. Neither party adheres to the principles with which it purports to--uh--identify. To me, both parties are extreme in their views on everything.

It's only people who declare themselves to be independents who I feel I have anything in common with, politically.

[The Beach Is My Bliss]

It's not about left and right. When will Elon realize this? It's only about liberty v. tyranny now.

[Sarah]

Look up the definition of liberal in Merriam Webster. It references generosity and anti-authoritarianism among other qualities. I feel like people on the left generally are nicer online unless you trigger their brainshed areas. People who claim to be truthers on the right are often assholes. If you combined kindness and libertariansim you would get actually a more accurate definition of liberal.

[Rich]

Elon Musk's post is exactly how I feel at the moment. However, I dislike labels of any kind because they give people the chance to pigeonhole you. One thing I have learned in the past few years is that everything is much more complex than it seems.

[Atom]

I've been saying it for years… I didn't leave the left, the left left me.

[Barney Rubble]

Musk's line chart should be a circle by drawing the left and right ends up to "12 o'clock" at 12 should be labeled ABSURD or Bat-Shit-Crazy.

[Sarah]

What party is this: Incentivizes local businesses and holds big corp/big tech/big agri/big ANYTHING accountable in real ways. Supports BOTH kinds of body sovereignty. Creaties societies that feed the good wolf, bring out the best in everyone and nurture compassion and responsibility as well as a freedom within a context of mutualism, interdependency and unity (aka we are all part of a natural ecoystem of Mother Earth and that is WHY we reject a corporate elitist Internet of Things/People that hurts oceans, pollinators and humans alike, while we also seek out regenerative farming practices that restore our role as stewards rather than exploiters of mother earth's resources and guests within her very body. We refuse to frack. We are loving and gentle people who are capable of using free energy responsible and therefore are able to access such technologies.

[Mdog]

Define "the right." I know what the left is doing. What has the so-called "right" been doing? Seems to me that there is no real "right." It looks to me as though the left has been pushing for more and more government control over every aspect of our lives, and the so-called right is just trying to not lose ground. The "right" is just a political meme developed by the left to use as a boogeyman to divide society and consolidate power. Read George Orwell (and Marx, for that matter) and it will all become very clear.

[ACSD]

By what metrics do they judge what position is centrist? I am way more conservative than I used to be because the lies of liberalism have been revealed to be destructive for individuals and society (personal liberation increases through feminism, socialism, etc...). Also, anecdotally I think it's true people become more conservative as they age...So, are we all older and know better now? I hope so.

[Unaffiliated]

As an American, I can tell you only Joe Manchin and Krysten Sinema are remotely moderate Democrats on a national level. The days of Sam Nunn and JFK are long gone. They’d be considered right wingers today. Most of the mean woke progressives are white, rich and college educated. Most of them do not live what they preach. Think BLM front yard signs in their lily white neighborhood- hell no they aren’t moving… or Climate Action Now signs in front of their 4000sq foot homes, but the do drive a Tesla… They can be some of the meanest and nastiest people you’d ever want to know.

The hard right has gone cookoo - think Marjorie Taylor Green. I’m not sure if someone like her even has core beliefs. We need more Reagan’s and JFKs and less nuts.

[David Walker]

I shifted when the “left went bonkers” (thanks to my friend D A fir introducing me to this phrase) and when all my liberal,friends endorsed state media censorship and support for the WEF

[KW NORTON]

Clear things have changed, lol. Elon points out the obvious most of us have felt for decades. He is playing catch up. People are really confused about Left and Right today. These used to mean totally different things. Basically we can see "Right" as moving towards fundamental agreements about the wisdom of our founding documents, basic human moral choices which support such beliefs as freedom of speech, human rights, liberty & equality. The "Left" is associated with actual fascism and the opposite of what "Right" translates to in the public imagination. The Left has repeatedly shot themselves in the proverbial feet. Now we must see if the process for electing new leaders actually works and if, given free elections, we get what we actually support.

[Brien]

Musk’s conception is correct if you focus simply on the 3 lines and not so much on the annotation. The scale has definitely expanded, meaning the scope of acceptable values and behavior is much wider than it was 60 years ago, or even 25 years ago, something which the Economist’s depiction misses altogether. The Overton Window has shifted and expanded, continuously and at varying rates, leftward since the end of WWII, slowly at first but with increasing velocity up until (arguably) very recently(2022). What is taken for “normal” on the nightly news today would have been gross perversion or absurdity 60 years ago. This affects everyone, and the constantly leftward moving Overton Window has had subtle and insidious effects on all of public and private life, from the school board meeting to the family dinner table to acceptable public discourse, dress, education, law, government policy(especially), etc. Nothing has been left untouched, and most people over 50 who claim to be conservative are not even aware of how their own personal Overton Window has shifted left under the influence of the massive leftward shift that has taken place in society, rendering normative values taken for granted in 1950 or 1960 as obsolete, or worse, even criminal.

But the cultural landscape has grown much more complex recently and is only now starting to shift in new directions, akin to a glacier or river that has suddenly encountered new terrain, something new that would alter its’ course or check its’ flow.

So culturally and politically words like conservative and liberal, Republican and Democrat, even left and right, are being redefined from an historical basis in ways perceptible but unclear at the same time. People are searching for a new compass and are discovering or rediscovering who they are and where they stand in this upside down world, on this new and shifting ground, every day, if they can keep their feet.

[shasta]

Definitely, the right parties have moved to the left. That's why we have witnessed a surge of patritic/nationalist parties. Those new parties say the same things the conservative parties said 10 years ago.

[The98thmonkey]

I wish I had time to draw my own UK version 🇬🇧 ( maybe someone else can do it 🙏🏻)

I would make the centre fulcrum an actual pivot point to display the balance in society

And there would be 2 columns

The column on the left would represent reality

The column in the right would represent the media idea of how society looks and it’s clarity would represent the relevance of its message and how much sway it has in society

In 2016 the majority of the country would be on the right but the media version will display precisely the opposite

Each year would display the growing disparity between reality and how the media is showing things

Below the end of each row would be a toilet icon or loony bin and the left would get progressively closer to it until the 2023 reality line shows no one on the left and just legs sticking out from the toilet and the media representation so feint as to be virtually unreadable.

WE are the news now!

Blogs like this prove it

“The unintended consequence of oppressing The People is that they wake up to Tyranny” 💉💡⏰💥

[Sathanas Juggernaut]

I like to know how Pew!Pew! arrived at their conclusion. I'm pretty sure Pew!Pew! are among the deeply corrupt pollsters who are more interested in trying to shape political thinking than to sample it (and shamelessly help Democrat candidates by giving them positive polling numbers, which always makes them look bad when they inevitably fail to accurately predict results)

[MR2]

In my view, the discussion is pointless without knowing *how* liberal and conservative were defined and measured. My hunch is that they’re not the same in the two studies. Compounding the issue is that the social understanding of “liberal” has changed over time.

Libertarians (as they’re called here in the US) are currently the most liberal by the classical understanding of the word. Often misunderstood by everyday folk is that libertarians themselves split into left/right types. What unites them is a power-distribution ideology and common understanding of the problem set. What separates them is typically the nature of their proposed solutions. For that reason, I think the libertarians both left and right are the most practical political force in the US right now. But they’re not really united or focused. But, that’s to be expected, because it’s antithetical to the ideology that unites them. Tough nut to crack for sure.

Modern political discussions between “left” and “right” can’t even get off the ground because the problem sets seem to only intersect where corporate corruption and govt capture generate wealth and power. Any problem involving the citizens is perceived so differently that debates over potential solutions are impossible.

Worse still, IMO, is how the everyday folk are played into fighting each other so the powers that be can continue consolidating wealth and power. Us everyday folk are convinced that the left/right problem sets are largely distinct, and that the other side is fundamentally inhumane. We’re fooled into yelling at each other like rabid dogs, completely unaware that most of the problems we face as everyday folk are the same. There’s no space for healthy debate around solutions. These “studies” by the Economist and Pew Research seem to be distracting us again.

When the recent debates over statue removal and dismantling were taking place, my friend asked a question which I think captures the essence of what I’m driving at: “why are we spending so much energy on dead powers that be when we should be addressing the current powers that be?” Answer: divide and conquer.

In my not so humble opinion, we need to stop playing into their hands. First order of business would be establishing a non-trivial political force whose priority is dictating the problem set on behalf of the everyday folk. Once that problem set is firmly established, then debates over the possible solutions can be had. Importantly, that political force cannot offer solutions because that force would then fracture into a thousand sub groups and we’d be worse off for it. Their role should be problem definitions and keeping everyone on task, with no explicit endorsement of particular solutions. They should have a fundamentally adversarial relationship with the power structure. They should have the role of moderators. They used to be known as the (free) press.

[Wil]

Reminds me of the interview of Bill Maher on Joe Rogan when Maher said that his position on the left hasn’t changed and that it’s the left that has moved farther away and they they have gone goofy.

[philipat]

“This illustration from the Economist shows that the left have moved the furthest but the right have also moved, just not as much.”

I actually disagree that’s what the Chart shows. In fact what it shows is that the right has remained in exactly the same place but the Center has shifted left by virtue of a new spectrum “average" after the "progressive" left moved hard left. That's why the "old left" is now right of the old center.

[Sarah]

Russell Brand (who has been labeled a rightist in spite of his favorite candidate beingpro-Bernie Sanders) does a great job of showing how right and left are irrelevant and outdated concepts.

[Jay Antani]

That graph is so wrong it's both depressing and stupid that people believe it. My views as a liberal (economic reforms incl. universal healthcare, expansion of union representation, free college education for all, imposition of wealth tax, taxing Wall St speculation, etc.) have not changed. What changed is that the bait-and-switch used-car salesman Obama bailed out banks, took his cues from Citibank, saw the eviction of over 5 million people, dismantled the Occupy Wall St. movement, deployed color revolutions throughout the middle east, made a smoking husk out of Libya as he expanded two wars to seven, and made healthcare a bigger racket and political cudgel than it ever was. Trump and now Biden merely expand on that legacy, and the grotesque neoliberal and neocon policies begun with Nixon, Reagan, Bush Sr., and Clinton. Do NOT believe that idiotic graph. The "left" is exactly where it's always been -- it just has no power. What NPR and The Atlantic tell you is the left is really just a bunch of woke identity traffickers who make noise about trans and gender and abortion issues while neglecting the economic and political plight of the poor and working class. The U.S. is a singularly woke, center-right warmongering nation that routinely ridicules the left because its ruling class cannot countenance any policy that would take a penny from its coffers nor an ounce of power it enjoys over the Fed and the war machine.

[DOK]

Both the left and right seem to never find another issue that they'd like to force upon all others. They both are for wars, never declared and often via proxies. Both have no issue spending our wealth so they can buy more voters and repay donors. Picking sides (fascism or socialism) is a fool's errand if you understand the real power and benefits of limited government that preserves our rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

[Orca]

The society as a whole has shifted left in the past century. Just look at today's Pope compared to previous Popes. Abortion, LGBTQ etc.

[Unacceptable Fringe Minority]

(Classical) Liberals get the bullet too . . .

[Coach Sal Marinello]

We are supposed have faith in data compiled and disseminated by the Left? Seems to me the Right is running on the same things they always have; (relatively) less government intrusion, (relatively) less government spending, minimizing abortion, lower taxes. Shades of these positions, to the Right, are hardly the equivalent to the paradigm shifts to the Left by the Left, such as abortion past birth, destroying the American fuel industry, insisting men are women and vice versa, censorship, no national borders, etc.

[la chevalerie vit]

“ is this representative of the everyday citizen? “ - hypothetically speaking, if the representatives don’t represent the people then where would that leave a constitutional republic formed to assure representation?

[InfoHog]

Looking at _parties_ , in Germany, those lower images are pure fantasy. EVERYONE moved left, and our supposed conservative party is hardly discernable from the "Social Democrats", but partially also in competition with the party calling themselves "The Left".

If I go by what opinions politicians are allowed to publicly hold, also: EVERYONE moved to the left. If you say what "conservatives" said 15 years ago, you'd be publicly demolished as a Nazi and all that stuff - and as usual, facts don't matter either.

Absolutely nobody moved to the right, as in Conservatism.

[Cheryl B.]

Good question. Personally I’ve moved more conservative as have many of my close friends here in AZ but my friends in blue states have moved more to the left. Most of us weren’t even interested in politics because we didn’t trust any politicians but things shifted when Obama got into office. Like him or not - Trump woke up a lot of people!

[GAU8A]

I think it is true that conservatives have no representation in the US government. They only have people who pander to them, take their donations, and in the end always give the left what they demand. This gives the impression that the country has moved to the left, when it has in fact moved much closer to a desire for complete separation.

[Rikard]

Discuss? Sure thing mate!

1) There is no such thing as "left" or "right" in politics, nor are ideas unique to any one ideology.

Example: the national socialist eugenics and racial programs where based on ideas from british and especially US capitalists and industrialists in the 1910s and early 1920s. It was not a socialist idea at all, at first, but a liberal, democratic and capitalist one. Today, as we are generally not taught this, we think eugenics and national socialism are intrinsically linked.

2) Any idea can belong to any one school of thought: the difference is only in what logic and reason is used to arrive at the desired position. (Exceptions do exist, but are mainly religious in nature; there is f.e. no possibility of being christian, jewish or moslem without advocating that homosexuals be killed - it's the law and word of the god of Abraham.)

Example: lowering taxes is generally seen as right/conservative standpoint, and higher welfare as a left one. But what if income taxes were to be lowered for the income bracket just above (or even under) the sum total of welfare, comparing similar families? That way, the ones earning the least would suddenly have more money not dependent on also qualifying for various welfare projects, while those on welfare have a greater incentiv to try to get a job, without welfare actually having been lowered. So is the idea of lowering taxes a right, or a left idea?

3) Any one person looking at an idea consciously will draw said idea to its logical extremes. That is how pomo-marxists arrive at the idiotic idea that 100% tax and the same income for all regardless of career or work is just and fair and will work - and libertarians that all taxation is theft and that a society without taxes and governement would work perfectly, which is equally retarded. The purpose of "cutting to the bone" re: ideas and the implementation thereof is to see where one might wind up if one isn't very careful: implementation is rather akin to how you stop falling off a tightrope - pragmatism and what observably achieves purpose is what matters, not adherence to -ism or ideological protocol.

Example: a communist, a libertarian and a nomal human is looking at a house on fire. The communist will want to organise a committee and appoint the libertarian as kommissar of the People's brigade for putting out fires, meaning the normal human will be doing all the work. The libertarian will ask what's in it for me and try to negotiate a good deal while the house burns, leaving again the normal human to do all the work since the communist will refuse to participate in such capitalist exploitation. And a normal human sees a house on fire and tries to help, period, end of.

As I annoyed my wife's colleagues at uni to no end, when she was at the insitution of women's studies (gender and queer not having become fashionable buzzwords yet): "How do you hammer in a nail in a feminist way?" You can replace feminist with any ideology.