Aaron Siri Interrogates Stanley Plotkin

9 Hour Vaccine Deposition Under Oath

Aaron Siri is a prominent attorney known for his legal work related to vaccine injuries. He has represented clients in vaccine injury claims in the Vaccine Injury Compensation Program (VICP) and has been involved in several high-profile cases and lawsuits related to vaccine safety and rights. Aaron Siri has also been vocal about issues related to vaccine mandates and informed consent.

The video below is from 2018 where Siri interrogated Stanley Plotkin.

Dr. Stanley A. Plotkin is a physician and virologist renowned for his contributions to vaccine development, notably the rubella vaccine. He co-authored "Plotkin's Vaccines," a seminal textbook in vaccinology considered a definitive resource in the field. Throughout his career, Plotkin held key academic and professional roles at institutions like the Wistar Institute and the University of Pennsylvania and served on vaccine advisory committees for organisations including the World Health Organization.

If you didn’t have questions about vaccines previously, you will do after watching this video. From lack of safety testing, to experimenting on orphans and the mentally ill, there is a lot of shocking information that comes out in this deposition. But it is nine hours long and I’m guessing you don’t have a spare nine hours, so I’ve summarised some key sections below. Or you can fast-forward to the specific time in the video.

1:21:00 - I don't do it for the money - Plotkin was questioned about his financial ties to pharmaceutical companies and his stance on vaccines. He confirms his belief in the efficacy and necessity of vaccines for children, irrespective of his financial engagements. He acknowledged pharmaceutical companies' profit motivations but argued that the broader scientific community supports the benefits of vaccines. The segment concludes with a query about Plotkin's potential earnings from a $182 million sale to "Royalty Pharma."

1:24:00 - Would you remember if you were paid 6 million dollars? - Plotkin was questioned about his potential earnings from a particular sale, with a reference to approximately six million dollars. Plotkin expressed uncertainty about the exact amount he might have received, emphasizing that he doesn't closely monitor his income and doesn't even read his own tax returns. The discussion shifted to the Wistar Institute's intellectual property on a rotavirus vaccine. Plotkin confirmed that he had received proceeds from the Wistar Institute for the sale of this intellectual property in the past, though he couldn't recall the exact amounts. The section concluded with the introduction of an article titled "Wistar Institute sells partial royalty interest in Merck's Rotavirus vaccine" as evidence, though it didn't seem to refresh Plotkin's memory on the sale's specifics.

2:44:00 - Rotavirus conflict of interest - Here the discussion revolved around the approval of a rotavirus vaccine. Plotkin confirmed that there was a previous rotavirus vaccine developed at the National Institutes of Health, which was later taken off the market due to its association with intussusception. A key figure was on the committee that voted for the approval of the initial vaccine, even though he held a patent with Plotkin on another rotavirus vaccine. The discussion then touched upon the dynamics of vaccine approval, suggesting that the approval of one vaccine might pave the way for the subsequent approval of another, provided the latter has comparable or superior properties.

2:50:30 - Working Group ACIP discussions - Siri probed the transparency and potential conflicts of interest within the CDC's ACIP (Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices) meetings. While Plotkin attempted to defend the CDC by mentioning their efforts to avoid conflicts of interest in ACIP, Siri astutely highlighted that while the meetings are public, the internal deliberations of the working groups that report to ACIP aren't transcribed, leaving room for potential bias. Siri further questioned the integrity of the ACIP process, suggesting that they might merely "rubber stamp" recommendations from these working groups. Siri then verified Plotkin's attendance at numerous ACIP meetings, hinting at the latter's deep involvement and potential biases.

2:53:00 - There's a gavel with my name on it - Plotkin was questioned about his participation in the recent ACIP meeting. Plotkin acknowledged that he was honoured with a named gavel, which will be used in future ACIP meetings. Siri probed further, asking about Plotkin's speech during the meeting and its availability on the internet. While Plotkin assumed his speech was uploaded, Siri noted its absence. Siri then delved into the procedures at ACIP meetings, highlighting that Plotkin, as well as vaccine manufacturers, can speak freely without waiting for a public comment period. In contrast, the general public must wait for designated times to comment. The discussion suggested a potential bias in the ACIP procedures, favouring industry insiders over the general public.

3:17:00 - Is 5 days long enough? - Siri scrutinized the clinical trial details for a vaccine from its manufacturer insert. He highlighted the limited five-day post-vaccination safety monitoring duration, emphasizing its inadequacy in capturing potential adverse reactions that might occur after this period. When questioned about the potential for detecting autoimmune issues, seizures, or other neurological disorders within this timeframe, Plotkin conceded the limitations. Siri also pointed out the absence of a control group in the described clinical trial. The segment ended with Siri beginning to delve into reported adverse reactions potentially related to the vaccine, hinting at potential issues or oversights in the vaccine's testing and reporting.

3:32:00 - There was no placebo group? - Siri delved deeper into the clinical trial details of a vaccine produced by GlaxoSmithKline. He pointed out the omission of a control group in the trial that administered 13,000 doses and pressed Plotkin to provide evidence if he believed otherwise. As the discussion transitioned to the post-marketing experience of the vaccine, Siri enumerated various immune system and nervous system disorders reported in connection with the vaccine, highlighting severe conditions such as encephalitis, multiple sclerosis, and Guillain-Barre syndrome. The segment concluded with Siri emphasizing the importance of a randomized placebo-controlled trial to determine causality between the vaccine and reported adverse events.

3:45:20 - The package insert for MMR2 - Siri questioned Plotkin about the MMR-2 vaccine, specifically highlighting the apparent absence of clinical trial data in the vaccine's manufacturer insert. Plotkin defended the vaccine, expressing doubt over the claim and emphasizing its extensive testing before licensure. He also stressed the significance of the MMR vaccine in reducing measles cases, asserting the vaccine's safety and efficacy based on its widespread use. Siri, however, persisted in highlighting the lack of pre-licensure clinical safety data in the manufacturer insert, while Plotkin maintained that safety and efficacy had been demonstrated despite the absence of this information in the insert.

3:59:20 - "Serious Adverse Events" - Siri pressed Plotkin on the safety evaluation of a vaccine, focusing on the lack of a placebo group receiving an inert substance in the clinical trial. The discussion centred on how adverse events post-vaccination are determined to be related or unrelated to the vaccine. Plotkin clarified that studies usually have a safety board that evaluates these relationships. He explained the definition of a "serious adverse event" and emphasized that only one out of 50 such events in a particular trial was attributed to the vaccine. However, Siri pointed out that the board determining these relationships was set up and chosen by the pharmaceutical company seeking the vaccine's approval, raising potential conflict-of-interest concerns.

4:24:20 - The GARDASIL/saline Placebo Control - Siri presented clinical trial data for the saline placebo control group in the a trial. The focus was on the reported serious adverse events. While Plotkin confirmed that the saline placebo group, consisting of 596 participants, showed no reported systemic autoimmune disorders, Siri highlighted a contrasting 2.3% (or possibly higher) occurrence of such disorders in the control group when the saline placebo group was excluded. The discussion emphasized the potential risks associated with the vaccine and the importance of comparing it to a truly inert placebo. Siri used the data to illustrate the elevated incidence of adverse events in the group receiving the adjuvant when compared to the saline placebo group.

4:48:00 - "Double-blind works if you want to be certain, but..." - The conversation between Siri and Plotkin revolved around the challenges in determining causality between vaccines and potential injuries. Siri stressed the importance of double-blind placebo-controlled studies for ensuring definitive conclusions. Plotkin acknowledged the value of such studies but emphasized the practical difficulties, noting the need for extensive studies across diverse age groups. The conversation highlighted the prevalent issue of potential false associations between vaccines and diseases due to widespread vaccination. Plotkin conceded that, ideally, meticulous pre-clinical studies should be conducted prior to vaccine licensure.

5:33:00 - Do vaccines cause autism? - Siri and Plotkin debated the scientific evidence surrounding vaccines and their potential association with autism. Siri highlighted the lack of concrete evidence confirming that certain vaccines do not cause autism. In response, Plotkin drew a distinction between his roles as a scientist and as a physician. As a scientist, he conceded the absence of absolute evidence against the link between vaccines and autism. However, as a physician, Plotkin stressed the broader context: vaccines protect against severe diseases, and there's no direct evidence they cause autism. Consequently, he continues to recommend vaccinations.

5:43:00 - Shouldn't you wait? - Siri pressed Plotkin on the prudence of making definitive claims about vaccines not causing autism in the absence of conclusive scientific evidence. Plotkin responded that, in his role as a physician, he prioritizes the immediate health of the child over waiting for definitive studies. The conversation then pivoted to whether a comprehensive study has been conducted comparing health outcomes of children following the CDC's vaccination schedule with completely unvaccinated children. Plotkin admitted the absence of such a study but highlighted other research suggesting potential health benefits of vaccinations. He reasoned that conducting such a study might be viewed as bad malpractice due to the established benefits of vaccination.

6:05:00 - We've been asking for 30 years - Siri probed Plotkin on his awareness of calls for a study comparing the health outcomes of vaccinated and unvaccinated children. While Plotkin admitted to not being familiar with such requests on web platforms, he acknowledged reading IOM and CDC reports. Siri pointed out existing CDC and IOM reports addressing these calls. Further pressing, Siri presented a recent pilot study comparing the health of vaccinated and unvaccinated children, authored by professors from Jackson State University's Department of Epidemiology and Biostatistics. Plotkin confirmed he was unfamiliar with this specific study.

6:09:00 - The only placebo vs. vaccine study results - Siri presented findings from a pilot study comparing health outcomes between vaccinated and unvaccinated homeschool children. The study indicated that while unvaccinated children were more likely to contract diseases like chickenpox and whooping cough, they were considerably less prone to various conditions such as allergic rhinitis, ADHD, autism spectrum disorder, eczema, learning disabilities, and neurodevelopment disorders. Plotkin, while acknowledging the presented figures, emphasized the importance of reading the study in detail and expressed interest in seeing a larger-scale study conducted in a blinded fashion to further investigate these claims.

6:58:00 - A letter to HHS - Siri presented a letter discussing concerns about aluminium adjuvants in vaccines, specifically highlighting their potential link to autism spectrum disorder (ASD). The author of the letter emphasized their expertise in studying the impact of aluminium adjuvants on animal models of neurological diseases, including ASD. The letter pointed out that there is growing evidence suggesting that aluminium adjuvants may disrupt developmental processes in the central nervous system and contribute to ASD in susceptible children. Furthermore, the author expressed concern that the safety of aluminium adjuvants hasn't been adequately studied in humans, and criticized the CDC's claim that vaccines do not cause autism as unsupported. Plotkin responded by challenging the credibility of the letter's author, Dr. Shaw, and his associations. He also expressed scepticism regarding the assertion that aluminium disrupts developmental processes in susceptible children.

7:05:30 - What kind of antigens are in vaccines? - Siri interrogated Plotkin about potential adverse effects of vaccines, specifically focusing on reported brain swelling after vaccination. Plotkin clarified that while side effects are listed in contraindications, it doesn't necessarily indicate a causal link. When questioned about the quantity of antigen in pediatric vaccines, Plotkin highlighted the variability, with some containing up to 50 milligrams of antigen, a minuscule amount. Further, on the topic of vaccine ingredients that could damage neurons or human cells, Plotkin stated that he wasn't aware of any such ingredients, emphasizing that harmful effects depend on concentration levels. The conversation shifted to the use of monkey kidney cells in vaccine production, particularly the polio vaccine. Plotkin explained that modern polio vaccines utilize a continuous cell line derived from monkeys, not direct extracts from live monkeys.

7:11:33 - Calf serum, guinea pig cells, and cow's milk - Siri examined a document on vaccine excipient and media summary, likely produced by the FDA, which lists ingredients in various vaccines. Siri highlighted the use of calf serum as an ingredient. Plotkin clarified that while calf serum is utilized as a nutrient during vaccine production, it is subsequently removed. Siri further inquired about other potential ingredients in vaccines, such as embryonic guinea pig cell cultures and cow's milk derivatives. Plotkin noted that while the varicella vaccine had been passaged in guinea pig cells, it wasn't made with them. Regarding cow's milk derivatives, Plotkin acknowledged the possibility of casein being present in some vaccines. The segment also touched on the presence of egg protein in influenza vaccines.

7:39:20 - Does Alum bind to cells? - Siri engaged Plotkin in a detailed discussion regarding the potential for various substances in vaccines to bind with aluminium adjuvants, commonly referred to as "Alum." They explored the binding possibilities of human albumin, human DNA strands, cellular debris from MRC-5 and WI-38, gelatine from pigs, egg protein, and casein with Alum. Plotkin conceded that while some of these substances could theoretically bind with Alum, there is no conclusive evidence to support these assertions.

7:43:10 - How many foetus' have you worked with? - Siri questioned Plotkin about his involvement with foetal tissue in vaccine research. While Plotkin initially claimed to have worked with only two foetuses for vaccine development, Siri presented an article co-authored by Plotkin that discussed a study involving 76 foetuses. Plotkin clarified that while the study did involve a significant number of foetuses, only two were directly used for creating vaccines.

7:50:40 - Did you used orphans to test an experimental disease 13 years AFTER the Nuremberg Code? - Siri inquired about Plotkin's involvement in vaccine studies that utilized vulnerable populations, including orphans and mentally handicapped individuals. Plotkin admitted to having conducted studies on orphans but was initially hesitant about acknowledging studies on the mentally handicapped. However, after Siri presented evidence from an article, Plotkin confirmed such studies, contextualizing his actions within the norms of the 1960s. He emphasized that while such practices were more accepted during that time, he has since changed his stance.

7:54:02 - The letter to the editor of Ethics of Human Experimentation - "Its unlike Nazi philosophy" - Siri confronted Plotkin with a letter he had written on the ethics of human experimentation. In the letter, Plotkin pondered the ethical implications of conducting experiments on fully functioning adults and children versus those who are "human in form but not in social potential." Plotkin acknowledged the letter and its content. Siri further inquired if Plotkin had ever used babies of incarcerated mothers or individuals under colonial rule for experimental vaccine studies, to which Plotkin confirmed his involvement in such studies, including a significant experiment in the Belgian Congo involving almost a million people.

7:56:00 - The 1959 experiments on over 1 million locals under Colonial Rule in the Congo has no samples left - Siri inquired about Plotkin's visit to regions of Africa, specifically Rwanda-Urundi (present-day Rwanda and Burundi) in 1959. Plotkin detailed the places he visited, including Leopoldville, Stanleyville, Kivu, Bukavu, and Burundi, spanning a couple of months. When asked about the purpose of his visits, Plotkin mentioned examining data on oral polio vaccination in Leopoldville and visiting a chimpanzee laboratory in Stanleyville. Throughout the exchange, Siri tried to ascertain the specifics of Plotkin's trip, including the duration of his stay in each location and his activities. Plotkin responded with general recollections, noting that he did not personally vaccinate anyone during his visit.

8:02:50 - Do you take issues with Religious beliefs? - Siri probed Plotkin on his stance regarding religious objections to vaccinations. Plotkin firmly stated that he doesn't believe in valid religious objections to refusing a vaccine, and he took issue with certain religious beliefs that might lead to such objections. He confirmed his earlier statement, asserting that "vaccination is always under attack by religious zealots who believe that the will of God includes death and disease." When asked about his personal beliefs, Plotkin identified as an atheist. He also expressed concerns about people's misunderstandings of risk-benefit ratios pertaining to vaccines, emphasizing that the risk from vaccines is significantly less than from diseases. Furthermore, Plotkin highlighted the importance of high vaccination coverage for public health.

8:12:00 - Since you're so interested in my income... - The conversation transitioned to Plotkin's financial affiliations, where he confirmed that he was testifying pro bono, yet still received remuneration from major vaccine makers. The focus then shifted to a controversy linking the oral polio vaccine (OPV) with the origin of AIDS. Plotkin, having previously refuted any connection between the two in papers submitted to the Royal Society, stood by his stance. He dismissed the allegations as being concocted by a British journalist, Mr. Hooper, who he critiqued.

8:18:30 - Are you asking me if I'm launching AIDS?! - Siri questioned Plotkin about his previous commitment to depositing specific papers related to the controversy linking the oral polio vaccine (OPV) with the origin of AIDS. Plotkin confirmed his promise and clarified that while not all documents were deposited in the library of Philadelphia, he retained extensive files, indicating he doesn't discard any documents. The conversation then shifted to the availability of human samples predating 1959 that had been tested for HIV. Plotkin admitted uncertainty, noting that the earliest samples he remembered were from 1960, already showing some HIV seropositive results. The segment concluded with Siri inquiring about the current existence of polio vaccine samples from the Belgian Congo.

8:27:00 - Pertussis transmission and the Warfel studies - The conversation between Siri and Plotkin revolved around the efficacy of the acellular pertussis vaccine. Siri cited a 2014 FDA announcement, noting that while individuals vaccinated with the acellular pertussis vaccine might be protected from the disease, they could still become infected and spread the bacteria. Plotkin confirmed this, referencing studies conducted on baboons as the basis for these conclusions, given ethical considerations prevent such tests on humans. He also acknowledged the challenges in determining the percentage of adults immune to pertussis. While Plotkin speculated that perhaps 50-60% of adults could be immune, he stressed that immunity wanes over time, making individuals susceptible again.

8:31:00 - How do you define an Anti-Vaxer? - Siri and Plotkin discussed the definition of "anti-vaccinationists" or "anti-vaxxers." Plotkin described them as people opposing vaccination for various reasons, some based on flawed interpretations of scientific data. When Siri inquired if someone opposing vaccines due to perceived insufficient risk data would be labelled an "anti-vaxxer," Plotkin responded affirmatively, especially if they refused vaccination for themselves or their children. However, he made an exception for immunosuppressed individuals, deeming their decision reasonable. Plotkin also distinguished between adults making personal decisions and decisions affecting children, emphasizing that decisions for children have broader public health implications. He also pointed out that healthcare workers should be vaccinated to prevent disease transmission to patients.

8:47:30 - Harvard's Study of VAERS Vaccine Adverse Events Reporting System finds less than 1% are reported - Siri broached a report titled "Electronic Support for Public Health Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System," conducted by Harvard Medical School and funded by an agency within HHS. The study aimed to automate the reporting of vaccine adverse events. Siri emphasized a statement from the report that fewer than 1% of vaccine adverse events are reported. The preliminary data, collected between June 2006 and October 2009, covered 715,000 patients, with 1.4 million doses of 45 different vaccines administered to 376,452 individuals. Out of these, 35,570 possible reactions were identified. The discussion underscored the potential underreporting of adverse reactions to vaccines and the necessity for a more comprehensive reporting system.